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Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold – Meb Faber Analysis

Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold


Company: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer are mining executives that constructed Goldcorp right into a $50 billion enterprise. Ian is the previous Chairman of Goldcorp and Frank was a co-founder & Director of Goldcorp. Frank later based Lionsgate leisure.

Date Recorded: 7/12/2022     |     Run-Time: 52:36

Abstract: In right this moment’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of probably the most knowledgable within the house. The blokes talk about why the arrange right this moment mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold when on a giant bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out in the course of the 1970’s and why they’re so bullish on gold right this moment that they began one other mining firm, Aris.

Feedback or options? Concerned about sponsoring an episode? E mail us [email protected]

Hyperlinks from the Episode:

  • 0:38 – Intro
  • 1:23 – Welcome to our company, Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer
  • 2:12 – The primary olive oil on the planet Domenica Fiore
  • 3:14 – Frank & Ian’s connection within the gold house with Goldcorp
  • 6:48 – How to consider gold right this moment
  • 13:44 – The genesis of their new undertaking, Aris
  • 16:31 – Ian’s philosophy for M&A
  • 26:34 – Is Gold’s sideways consolidation a very good alternative for patrons?
  • 32:24 – World Asset Allocation
  • 37:58 – Twitter Ballot: How many individuals say they personal gold or miners?
  • 39:18 – Issues they’re excited about as they appear out to the horizon
  • 45:12 – Their most memorable investments
  • 49:07 – Be taught extra about Frank and Ian: @Frank_Giustra



Meb: Welcome to “The Meb Faber Present,” the place the main focus is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we talk about the craft of investing, and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that will help you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.

Disclaimer: Meb Faber is the co-founder and the chief funding officer of Cambria Funding Administration. Resulting from business rules, he won’t talk about any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast members are solely their very own opinions and don’t mirror the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra info, go to

Meb: What’s up, my pals. Now we have an incredible present for you right this moment. Our company are Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer, two profitable mining executives that constructed Goldcorp to a $50 billion firm. Enjoyable truth, Frank additionally began Lionsgate Leisure. In right this moment’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of probably the most educated and profitable operators and executives within the house. The blokes talk about why the macro set-up right this moment mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold went on a giant bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out in the course of the Nineteen Seventies and why they’re so bullish on gold right this moment. They bought the band again collectively and so they began in one other mining firm, Aris Gold. Please get pleasure from this episode with Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer.

Meb: Frank and Ian, welcome to the present.

Frank: Thanks.

Ian: Thanks.

Meb: I used to be simply remarking, this can be a fashionable Zoom. So, fellas, inform us the place you’re positioned right this moment. I’m in Los Angeles. Frank, the place are you?

Frank: I’m in France.

Meb: And Ian?

Ian: I’m in Ontario, about two hours north of Toronto.

Meb: Very cool. Effectively, guys, we’re going to speak about all issues gold, macro, mining. However earlier than we begin, I bought a query for Frank as a result of I’ve a package deal within the mail. It’s not right here but, so I can’t do a stay style take a look at, however I bought some olive oil coming to my home out of your farm or out of your manufacturing firm. Give me a bit of preview. What do I’ve to look ahead to? What kind of makes use of? Is that this salad form of olive oil? Is that this cooking olive oil? Give us a bit of background.

Ian: Effectively, thanks for the free business. It’s referred to as Domenica Fiore, it’s named after my mom. I began making it about 12 years in the past or so, and it’s made in Italy in a spot referred to as Orvieto in Umbria. It’s rated the primary olive oil on the planet. And that’s not me saying that, that’s all these worldwide judges at virtually each competitors on the planet. Don’t use it for cooking. Please don’t use my oil for cooking. It’s far too precious. We name it ending oil, so use it for salads, dipping your bread, ending meats, pasta, soups, no matter. It’s ending oil. It’s beautiful.

Meb: I feel I bought the sampler. Do you may have a favourite? I’m going to carry you to the fireplace.

Frank: The favourite is what we name the Novello Di Notte, which suggests it’s new oil made at nighttime. We’re the one producer on the planet that harvest our oil very early within the season when it’s nonetheless actually sizzling in Italy. And we harvest in the course of the evening, and it makes a world of distinction. Simply an unimaginable oil, and it’s a really distinctive, very restricted version, Novello Di Notte.

Meb: Very cool. Effectively, I look ahead to it. Let’s begin speaking about all issues mining and gold. You guys have labored collectively previously, sort of bringing the band again collectively. So, Ian, I feel I’ll direct this one to you. Give us a bit of origin story. You guys, what you’ve been as much as, after which we are able to get into what you guys are doing now.

Ian: As you mentioned, Frank and I’m going again fairly a methods within the gold enterprise with the beginning up of Wheaton River 20-plus years in the past. And our imaginative and prescient then was to construct a brand new main gold mining firm. Though lots of people begin off with that imaginative and prescient, we really had been capable of accomplish it. We had been excited concerning the timing, and we had been excited concerning the alternative, and we had been very pleased with the way it all unfolded.

Meb: For the listeners who aren’t as acquainted, so my non-Canadian Australians, give us a bit of background. They might have heard the title Wheaton River, however what does that imply? Inform us only a actual fast overview of what that was.

Ian: Positive. Effectively, in 2000, Frank and I made a decision we must always attempt to construct a significant gold mining firm. And as we regarded round for alternatives, we discovered this firm referred to as Wheaton River Minerals, and so they had run out of ore, and so they had a bit of bit of money, and so they’d run out of concepts. And so Frank and I took over the board of administrators, put a bit of of our personal cash in, after which very aggressively went out and began buying belongings to construct a gold mining firm. And over the subsequent seven years, I suppose we purchased about 9 gold mines. And the market cap went from $20 million CAD to its…at its top, it bought to $50 billion USD. It was an excellent expertise, and the market was enthusiastic about it, and so they had been very comfortable that we had been there to create one other car for the traders. That was principally the story.

Frank: Effectively, most traders would acknowledge the corporate as Goldcorp. It modified, and as we did one among our reverse takeovers was with an organization referred to as Goldcorp, which was already current. We renamed Wheaton River Goldcorp again in 2003 or ’04. And so if you happen to had been to look it up, it was Goldcorp.

Meb: What was actually the primary worth driver? As a result of, I imply, that’s fairly dramatic…getting as much as a $50 billion market cap just isn’t chump change and that’s not a straightforward process.

Ian: There was a pair, one was the value of gold. Our timing turned out to be completely impeccable. Once we began on the journey, the gold worth was about $250. After which over the subsequent s7 or 8years, it bought as much as virtually $2000. In order that, clearly, we had the wind at our again. However secondly, we had been probably the most aggressive, form of, agglomerator within the enterprise, and the market liked that. And so we saved buying belongings, a bit of bit like non-public fairness, besides we used fairness, we didn’t use a lot debt. So, placing the 2 collectively, the gold worth and the velocity at which we had been appearing, that’s what actually created all the worth.

Frank: And we purchased some nice belongings to start with. And going again to what Ian was saying, in the beginning, when nobody believed within the gold worth, there have been only a few of us. Truly, I wrote a thesis again in 2001 about what I anticipated gold to do subsequent. And at the moment, once I got here up with that publication, only a few folks believed it. So once we had been on the market shopping for belongings, we had been shopping for extremely good belongings when fewer folks wished them. And so it was…the concept was we chosen actually nice belongings and we bought them early on and that gave us a giant leg up over everybody else that got here in later as a gold worth began to maneuver.

Meb: So, right here we’re, quick ahead. It’s now 2022, and we’ve completed just a few podcasts on gold and mining, however so much on pure sources, particularly, farming basically, gold sitting someplace in that $1,700 zone. That is mid July. Frank, possibly give us a bit of framework for a way to consider gold. We did a Twitter ballot the opposite day, or just a few months in the past, once we requested traders, “Do you may have any publicity to actual belongings?” And so, that means simply all commodities, even REITs, TIPs, and most traders don’t, or in the event that they do, they’ve little or no in a world of regardless of the inflation is right this moment. That appears unwise, however give us possibly a bit of macro consideration about gold basically. The place do you suppose we’re? The case for it, all that great things.

Frank: I feel that the sentiment just isn’t that dissimilar to 2001. Now we have only a few folks right this moment that imagine within the gold worth. They see it caught in a variety between form of $1,700 and $2,000, and never going anyplace, they’ve watched all of the cryptocurrencies undergo the roof, and the tech shares undergo the roof, and the beginnings of an inflationary interval, and the truth that gold hasn’t moved. And I feel that sentiment is every thing in markets, and I feel it’s similar to how folks felt again then. And the half that it is advisable concentrate on is, who’re the true gold patrons in right this moment’s market? And there are a number of tendencies that it’s a must to watch. And I’ve been writing about gold for over 20 years. I watch it very carefully, I write so much about macro tendencies and what’s occurring within the world financial system.

And it’s a must to simply take note of a few info. To start with, bodily gold is transferring from West to East. So China, India, clearly, the 2 largest patrons of gold constantly shopping for gold over the many years and including to their reserves, particularly China. Russia, additionally. And whereas the west has been centered on paper gold, after they have any curiosity in gold, it’s simply paper gold, which isn’t actual gold, by the way in which. In case you suppose you’re shopping for actual gold, once you purchase gold ETFs, you’re badly mistaken. So the bodily stuff is transferring from West to East. And I feel that that’s one factor it’s a must to pay lots of consideration to. Central banks…since 2010, central banks world wide have been on a gold-buying binge. They proceed so as to add to the gold reserves. Their U.S. greenback publicity is slowly taking place when it comes to their reserves, and their gold goes up. So that they see the writing on the wall.

I feel if you happen to had been China right this moment, with the way in which they take a look at making long-term choices, they’ve very long-term plans. They’ve been including to their gold reserves, and they’re going to proceed so as to add to their gold reserves, and for them to see the gold worth staying the place it’s, is completely superb. I don’t suppose they’re having any hassle with that. The U.S., then again, the Fed and others, different policymakers disparage gold. They don’t need you to personal gold. They name it a barbaric relic, it’s not a forex. Effectively, actually, it’s a forex, and each central financial institution on the planet is aware of it’s a forex. So I simply watch what folks do versus what they are saying. And people are the 2 main issues it’s a must to watch. So I feel that we’re heading in the direction of some form of world financial system reset. What that’s going to seem like, who is aware of? It may play out some ways.

I wrote an article on this final week and I speculated that maybe it may go within the course of {a partially} backed gold forex use for settlement functions by nations that wish to keep away from being sanctioned or expelled from the SWIFT system, U.S. SWIFT system. And so I feel that there’s a very good likelihood that gold may play a task in regardless of the financial system reset is, just because all of the central banks already personal it, they’re buying increasingly more of it yearly. The idea system in fiat currencies is falling aside, and it’s falling aside all over the place. In case you take a look at what they’ve completed, not simply with the greenback, however the euro and the yuan, they’re destroying these currencies by printing trillions and trillions of these items. I feel since 2006, central financial institution reserves within the 5 main central banks have gone up 500%. They’re simply creating cash out of skinny air. And finally, you’ll be able to’t play that sport eternally. And that’s why I feel the good cash, the long-term cash has gold publicity, and particularly the central banks.

Meb: Once we take a look at it, I feel gold not performing currently is a little bit of a shock to lots of people we discuss to. And we are saying there’s sort of two massive quant components that actually are constructive for gold, one being unfavorable actual rates of interest, which we actually have, and the opposite being an inverted yield curve, which now we have. And so, as we glance out within the horizon, let’s say we do that one other yr, two, or three, and we are saying, “Okay, nicely, gold actually began to bull.” In case you may guess, and that is extra of a contented hour/espresso query, so…however what kind of catalyst…Is there one thing that you’d say is your most certainly guess as to what…is it a bear market? Is it extra crypto fraud? Is it some form of geopolitical one thing? What do you suppose will trigger this to really shift into bull mode?

Frank: I feel all of these issues that you just simply talked about will play a task, however I feel the most important, to me, shall be when the Fed blanks once more. And going again to pre-2008, I began writing about what the Fed would do after the disaster of 2008, they did precisely that. They took charges to zero, printed some huge cash. Then Bernanke got here out and mentioned, “Effectively, you understand, no downside. We will normalize charges and we are able to unwind the stability sheet.” And I referred to as BS on that in a number of articles. After which as they began to lift charges, I mentioned, “They’re going to solely get them to this point, after which they may pause, clean, and reverse.” And I mentioned that in 2016 and 2017, and that’s precisely what occurred two years later. And I’m telling you, as we communicate, my view of it’s that there’s all this speak about normalizing charges proper now as a result of inflation is so excessive and so they need to get it underneath management, however they will’t. Mathematically, it’s inconceivable.

Anyone with a easy calculator will let you know that there’s a lot debt within the system, authorities, company, private debt is globally at $300 trillion, they will’t normalize charges. They usually know that, okay? So all this speak about these aggressive hikes, the way it’s going to get this underneath management, I believe by this fall…we’ll see, however my finest guess is by someday this fall, they may clean, and they’re going to pause, after which they’ll reverse. And we’re going to return to zero finally. If the market continues to implode or we fall right into a deep recession, there’s one other geopolitical occasion, no matter it’s, they’ll discover an excuse for it. Final time was a pandemic. They’ll discover an excuse for it, and they’re going to pause. That’s, to me, going to be the catalyst that units the gold worth on hearth as a result of I’d suppose by then, individuals are going to appreciate that they’re in an inescapable entice. They can’t normalize charges. It’s mathematically inconceivable.

Meb: Let’s begin to take a bit of stroll ahead to what y’all’s new concepts? What was the genesis of this concept? And provides us an summary of what you guys are banding up for now.

Frank: As Ian talked about, no, we bought collectively…and I bear in mind I used to run an funding financial institution again within the ’90s, and Ian was one among my massive purchasers within the mining sector. And I bear in mind the day I resigned from the agency, I wished to step away from the business and do one thing else. So I simply walked away. However I nonetheless had lunch booked with Ian. We went to lunch anyway, and I mentioned, “Ian, you understand what? I don’t know what I’m going to do subsequent. But when I ever come again to the mining business…” that is again in 1996. I mentioned, “If I ever come again within the mining business, you’ll be my first name.” Scroll ahead 5 years later, I believed…I got here up with the concept that we would have liked to do one thing. I wasn’t fairly positive what, however I had my thesis on gold, and once I wished to create one thing, my first name was Ian. And we bought collectively and we created Wheaton River, which finally turned two corporations. So Wheaton River, which turned Goldcorp, and the spinoff, which was Silver Wheaton, the dear metals streaming firm, which is Wheaton Valuable Metals right this moment, which I feel has a few $23 billion market cap. That was Ian’s genius of that spinoff, in order that was an unimaginable success.

Then in 2009, proper after the disaster and the printing of cash began to happen, we created Endeavor Mining, which I did with a fellow named Neil Woodyer, who was one among our authentic board members on Wheaton River, by the way in which. And we created a mining firm with mines in West Africa. Over time, we constructed it as much as about 5 completely different mines in 4 completely different nations, and it went as much as a few $3 billion, $4 billion market cap. Then in 2016, we did one other one, once more with Neil, this time in Latin America, that was Leagold. That was merged with Equinox, one other $2 billion or $3 billion firm. And once we bought Lea to Equinox, I knew…this was on the time when the Fed blanked again in 2019, and so they began to reverse course. I mentioned, “Okay, we’re going to be in for an actual gold market this time.” And this time they will be unable to tug it again.

And that is once I approached Ian and Neil once more. So now this time, it’s Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, myself, and several other others which were within the gold mining enterprise for a protracted, very long time, and we determined to create Aris. And Aris is the present firm with two initiatives, two very giant initiatives. And once more, it’s the beginnings of one thing. And the concept is not any completely different than every thing else we’ve completed previously. It’s a buy-and-build technique. So, which means utilizing our experience in M&A, and our experience with elevating cash within the capital markets, and our administration experience to know what belongings to purchase, what to pay for them, tips on how to repair them if they’ve an issue, tips on how to maximize worth. That’s the Aris story, which I’m a particular advisor to, Ian’s chairman, and Neil is CEO.

Meb: So Ian, how do you discover these particular belongings to purchase? Presumably, they’re not simply sitting on the market on a platter someplace. What’s the method, and the way do you guys sort of go about it? And inform us all of your secrets and techniques.

Ian: Effectively, as Frank says, the corporate is loaded with folks which were within the business for a very long time. So we’re conscious of lots of what’s occurring on the market, now we have data of lots of the belongings, now we have data of who may be enthusiastic about exiting the enterprise, and now we have lots of expertise as to tips on how to run these extra effectively. However to get again to your query, giant, good, gold ore our bodies are very uncommon. They’re very uncommon. And Frank and I, we acknowledged that 20 years in the past. Effectively, they’re rarer now. And so, trying to find them is a problem, and discovering them is a matter, and competitors for them is at all times round.

So it’s a must to be inventive, it’s a must to take some dangers. And to this point, we’ve been very enthusiastic about what we’ve been capable of do with Aris. Our ambitions are giant. The market has indicated over, and over, and over once more, they need some giant corporations to put money into on the market. And every time a Goldcorp disappears into Newmont, nicely, that creates a vacuum for another person. And in order that’s form of the impetus for us. And as I say, we’ve completed a few issues to this point, however we’re very formidable and we’re very aggressive. And historical past tells us that the market will reward us for that.

Meb: The place have you ever guys began discovering properties already? Are these in Canada, U.S., Africa, Latin America? The place are you guys discovering alternative?

Ian: Effectively, to this point it’s been Latin America, and it’s been Columbia. So we’ve bought two operations…one operation down there, and one other mega undertaking to be constructed over the subsequent three years, however we’re taking a look at alternatives in different nations as nicely.

Meb: As we discuss concerning the gold miners basically, would love to listen to a bit of perception from you guys as a result of there’s in all probability…if you happen to had been to ask me, there’s in all probability no different sub-sector or business in my thoughts the place administration is extra essential than in y’all’s world. And I like the phrase “success leaves traces.” And so, gold mining as a sector, the shares haven’t been doing an entire lot for some time, however what are among the essential drivers that the market, on a safety degree, actually seems for? Is it merely manufacturing multiples? Is it stability? Is it…? Simply discuss to us a bit of bit about if we had been to do that in 2, 3 years and we mentioned, “Hey, you guys have 10X, 50Xed this firm,” and we glance again, like, what can be the sort of massive drivers within the mining sector for you guys?

Frank: I feel…Pay attention, it’s a mixture of issues, and I’m positive Ian will add to what I’m going to say, however administration, actually essential, particularly within the strategy that we take, okay? Administration is paramount as a result of it’s all about expertise, experience, and data. Mining, as you understand, is a really tough business. It’s a must to not solely fear concerning the geology and capital markets, now we have to fret concerning the safety, it’s a must to fear about politics, and all kinds of alternate charges, 1,000,000 various things. And if you happen to haven’t completed it earlier than, you’re going to…sure to run into surprises. So, expertise is every thing. In my view, and Ian in all probability can add much more to this, is there are solely a handful of individuals on this world. It’s not a giant business per se. It’s not like, say, the tech business or different industries. This can be a very small business the place the profitable ones, you’ll be able to rely ’em virtually in a single hand, possibly two. To me, administration is every thing.

And I feel we’ve assembled…once you take a look at guys like Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, and now we have Peter Marrone on the board, David Garofalo, Serafino Iacono. Now we have all these those that have completed all of it earlier than in their very own proper and have come collectively to do it collectively. Everyone brings an entire load of expertise to the desk. And that, to me, that’s what permits me to sleep nicely is understanding that the corporate’s in good arms. Everyone knows what we’re doing, everyone knows what our worth is in creating this factor. So, Ian, do you may have something so as to add to that? I imply, that’s the way in which I see it.

Ian: I completely agree with that. And the opposite factor I feel Frank and I understood again once we began with Wheaton River, and we perceive now, we all know how uncommon good ore our bodies are, and we’re not afraid to exit and pay as much as get them. And I feel there are too many individuals within the gold business in search of a deal or in search of a discount. We’re by no means in search of a deal or a discount, we’re in search of high quality, and I’m in search of amount. I feel folks underestimate how a lot dimension issues within the gold mining enterprise. And if you wish to get the eye of institutional traders, you higher present them you’re on a path to develop to be a big producer. And so Frank and I each perceive that. And once more, our expertise with Wheaton River, we went out for main belongings and needed to do main financings, however we had main success. And so we’ll be doing the identical factor over and over right here, however dimension is essential.

Frank: That’s a very good level. On that be aware, so the 2 initiatives that we at present have in Aris, our possession that’s to our accounts already get about 10 million ounces of gold that’s within the floor that must be extracted. That’s lots of ounces of gold as a starter equipment, per se. Okay. So, and the grade is nice, it’s nice grade, and it’s 10 million ounces that we hope to mine for our account. The target, and once you say, once we look again, let’s say 3, 4, 5 years from now, what’s the target? The place are we going? We have to create an organization that produces a minimum of 1,000,000 ounces a yr of gold. That may put you within the ranks of an essential gold producer on the planet the place the establishments need to personal you, you’re within the indexes, you’re in ETFs.

And that, once more, we’ve completed that a number of occasions and we’re nicely on our strategy to assembling the items, as we communicate, to get us to that million ounces a yr of manufacturing, the place you’re producing nice money move as a result of your price of manufacturing is reasonable. And that, once more, now we have that in each of the operations. We all know that the numbers work in that regard. So if you happen to get 2 million ounces, and you’ve got nice revenue margins, after which the third half is you get right into a gold market, then that’s the place you get your Wheaton River sort story that goes from hundreds of thousands to billions in a short time.

Meb: Satan’s advocate problem for you guys, somebody who’s been there and been massive, after which now doing a youthful enterprise, once you go to talk with a undertaking to be a purchaser, how exhausting is it? I imply, in a world you talked about earlier of low-interest charges and sort of accommodative circumstances and simpler cash, how exhausting is it to barter with a undertaking when you may have possibly somebody who’s a lot larger additionally in search of related initiatives? Do they worth you guys out? I really feel like that is virtually like a VC pitching a startup. How can you persuade a few of these initiatives? Is it actually sharp elbows or is it not a lot? Give me an summary of how deal cycle transactions go about or shut.

Frank: I may be freely giving commerce secrets and techniques, however each scenario is completely different, okay? And so all I can say is let’s take a look at the final one we simply did, our most up-to-date acquisition, okay? We had been uniquely positioned…in that state of affairs, we had been uniquely positioned to be the fitting purchaser for that asset to make it occur due to our nation expertise in that particular nation. And so, had one other firm are available like a bigger, say, Newmont, no matter, they wouldn’t have had the identical native potential to work with communities, work with authorities, to make issues occur in that nation. They wouldn’t have had the identical data as our administration group did. So in each state of affairs, we don’t go into bidding processes. There’s an asset that goes up on the market, and it’s going by means of a course of by means of funding banks, we keep away from that. Ian and I hate that as a result of that’s not the sport we play. We discover very particular belongings that nobody else can get their head round why or the way you’re going to get it, and we do these as an alternative. I don’t suppose we’ve ever been in a course of, have we, Ian, the place we had been shopping for one thing on another person?

Ian: No, no. We…

Frank: It’s not our sport.

Ian: We had been in a few bidding conditions at Wheaton River, however generally, we didn’t know we had been bidding towards another person. We had been dealing instantly with the vendor and we put up our provide, after which afterwards, we came upon we outbid someone by a penny, however we had no concept. However yeah, we don’t search for these conditions in any respect. The opposite factor that occurs is due to our expertise and our monitor file, once we say we’ll elevate cash, we elevate it. Once we say we’ll shut, we shut. We get lots of alternatives due to that. Folks know that we’re critical, and if we agree on one thing, it’s going to occur. And that’s meant that we get calls greater than most individuals about belongings that could be accessible as a result of folks know they will take care of it.

The opposite factor, we’re extremely good at preserving issues quiet. And that, once more, folks admire that, that they will take care of us, and one of many corporations that Wheaton purchased was Glamis. That was an $8 billion acquisition again at that cut-off date. And everybody was watching the gold house as rigorously as they do, all of the analysts, all of the funding bankers. Nobody had a clue till we introduced it. After which once we did the takeover of Placer with Barrick, once more, enormous Canadian mining occasion, not a whisper available in the market till it was introduced. So we’re very happy with these issues that we’d ship, and we are able to preserve a secret.

Meb: One of many challenges, but additionally alternatives by means of pure useful resource corporations is the cycle. There’s increase occasions, there’s darkish occasions, there’s in-between occasions. And sort of it appears, and also you guys can illuminate me extra as a result of I’m not as in contact with this, however gold and the miners have sort of been oscillating form of sideways. Is that this a form of opportunistic, wealthy setting? Like, are there lots of distressed properties or folks seeking to promote mines, or what’s the overview of form of the mining sector for a possible purchaser or vendor right this moment?

Frank: I wouldn’t say that it’s a distressed setting. I’ll simply say it rapidly right here, after which Ian can chime in, however I wouldn’t say it’s a distressed setting by any means. I’d extra classify it as a disinterest setting. It’s very quiet, very inactive. The those that personal belongings are sitting on them, there’s not lots of capital funding getting in by those that personal. Once more, it jogs my memory of some 20 years in the past when it simply looks like nobody cares in the intervening time, which for us is nice.

Ian: Yeah. No, I’d agree with that. It’s a disinterested market. And the opposite factor about gold shares, the one those that personal gold shares are those that suppose the value goes to go up. Nobody buys a gold inventory for the dividend, and even for a retailer of worth. They purchase gold shares as a result of they suppose the value of gold goes to go up, and subsequently the inventory will go up. And so, even when the value of gold is down, and there’s no pleasure concerning the fairness markets, they’re nonetheless by no means low cost. They’re by no means low cost. They’re totally priced to right this moment’s gold worth. And so, it’s a must to actually have conviction both that it’s going to get larger or conviction that the value of gold is definitely going to go up, to get in there and do a deal.

And that’s why, in my opinion, you see so most of the mid-tier producers that simply form of doddle alongside decade after decade and don’t do a lot, their inventory doesn’t do a lot, nobody’s enthusiastic about it as a result of I’d say they don’t have conviction about what they might purchase or what the value will do. And in order that’s the place we’re a bit of bit completely different. However there’s by no means bargains within the gold enterprise ever, ever, ever. Frank and I haven’t discovered one but.

Frank: Not but.

Meb: Jogs my memory of native actual property right here in Los Angeles.

Ian: Yeah.

Meb: I’m an inexpensive bastard, and so in search of bargains in actual property close to the surf breaks has been an train in futility. So, we bought lots of each institutional and particular person traders that take heed to this present. Discuss to us a bit of bit about how to consider placing cash to work within the miners. Was it one thing the place like, “Hey, simply go purchase an ETF and be completed with it,” or if you happen to’re really going to get into the inventory choice, what do you have to keep away from? What do you have to search for once you’re sort of beginning to decide some safety choice names on this? Lots of people can get burned with inventory choice in any sector, however gold mining was one which I really feel like is fraught with locations to keep away from. Give us a bit of steerage for these seeking to deploy some money right here.

Frank: I’ll go first right here. I feel it’s a must to begin together with your macro view of your portfolio. I imagine that, in the beginning, it’s a must to be diversified. So, which means not placing all of your eggs in a single sector. Your mining portfolio goes to be a part of your general portfolio. Inside that…By the way in which, I additionally imagine we’re in a tough asset setting proper now the place your general portfolio needs to be skewed in the direction of exhausting belongings, which clearly means mining corporations. And never simply gold corporations, mining corporations basically. That is the way in which I do it. Then I take a look at my mining sector portfolio and I feel, “Effectively, what’s in there?” Effectively, clearly you’re not going to place every thing into danger belongings, you understand? That’s dumb. So that you’re going to purchase…there’s some unimaginable alternatives proper now with the massive worldwide miners. The Rio Tintos, the DHVs, the Valleys, the Anglos, the dividends that they’re paying at present metallic costs are 10%, 12%, 13%, 14% dividends.

And if you happen to imagine, as I imagine, that we’re in a multiyear cycle proper now, the place inflation will preserve these metallic costs elevated, then it’s a must to personal these. That’s your much less dangerous facet of the portfolio. You then at all times have some cash for…if you wish to take the chance, you’ll take a look at corporations like ours and say, “Okay, I wish to purchase a development firm.” With development and ambition comes danger. So it’s a must to weigh that too, however that may be a portion of your portfolio. I at all times say that in these situations, you higher be good at inventory choosing or be getting nice recommendation from those that know what they’re doing as a result of this business’s simply crammed with tons and plenty of folks with massive concepts and really low potential to ship. And so there’s tons and plenty of these on the market telling nice tales that don’t really ever ship however inform nice tales. And so it’s a must to be very cautious. And so it’s all about administration, and you actually need to do your homework once you come to this finish of the chance portion of your portfolio.

Ian: Effectively, the one factor I’d additionally touch upon, although, is you take a look at the monitor file of the administration groups. As a result of what you do discover within the mining enterprise is similar folks appear to have success over, and over, and over once more. And so if you happen to’re taking a look at investing with a bunch of individuals, take a look at those that have completed it earlier than and it’s labored out nicely. As a result of take a look at, all these investments are robust, all these mining operations are troublesome, however sure folks simply persist with it, and push exhausting, and get it completed. And so along with, as Frank says, various your portfolio, and looking out on the belongings, and looking out on the political danger, and looking out on the geological danger, put some huge cash on administration.

Meb: It simply jogged my memory, so I simply posted a tweet actual fast, as a result of I like to ballot my viewers for sentiment and all kinds of issues, and it’s a very good point-in-time indicator on all kinds of not simply market historical past, however how are you allotted? What are you doing? And the outcomes are sometimes shocking, and considerably miserable. We requested a few highlights the place we ask folks, what was the most important after-inflation drawdown in bonds that they thought occurred in historical past? And most of the people thought it was 5%, 10%, and the reply to that’s nicely over 50%, and different questions like that, however we’ll have to attend about 10 minutes for the outcomes to return in, however I did a do you personal gold or gold miners portfolio? So we’ll see what proportion comes out of my viewers.

However it’s humorous as a result of we did a ebook referred to as “World Asset Allocation” the place we checked out lots of conventional asset allocation methods, and so long as you personal sort of all the primary classes, you are inclined to do okay, however at one specific setting actually stood out, and that was the Nineteen Seventies. And also you guys bought a bit of gray hair. You could be extra acquainted with the ’70s, however many individuals investing right this moment haven’t invested throughout that setting. It’s been a declining rate of interest, decrease inflation setting, and never so much helped within the ’70s. You personal lots of conventional stuff, you bought taken sort of to the woodshed, however gold, clearly, was one of many massive standouts. Worth shares sort of helped higher than the alternative, nevertheless it looks like you may have these cycles in historical past the place by the point that everybody has forgotten what kind of setting…they’ve solely invested throughout a sure interval, it predisposes them to an setting that didn’t exist. I don’t actually have any query, however do you may have any remark?

Frank: I feel I do know the place you’re going with this. And that is one among my favourite talks, is that this technology, those with the black hair such as you guys, weren’t round within the ’70s. I began on this business in ’78, Ian just a few years earlier than me. And…

Ian: Thanks.

Frank: …we all know what it was like. And I’ll let you know what occurred. Effectively, folks overlook about bear markets, which this technology has by no means, ever, ever seen a bear market. I don’t know if you happen to bear in mind the Nifty Fifties, the high-flying shares of the Nineteen Sixties. Effectively, that each one resulted in 1969. Truly, the height was 1966. 1969, it got here down actual exhausting, and it didn’t hit the outdated excessive till 1982. Okay? So that you had a 13-year bear market the place issues went like this, simply sideways. And also you had a number of recessions in there. The one issues that went nicely had been gold, oil, actual property, farmland, all that stuff.

And other people overlook that we’ve been accustomed, we’ve been conditioned to imagine that you just purchase on the dips, that the Fed’s going to return to the rescue, all of those silly issues that work for lengthy durations of time till they don’t work anymore. The 1929 crash, these shares by no means hit their highs once more till 1952, there have been lots of nice rallies in between however overlook concerning the outdated highs. And other people don’t perceive that when a bear market actually units in, and the circumstances change, the whole setting has modified. Now you’ve had this enormous debt bubble that has grown over the many years. You’ve had this straightforward cash coverage, which has spoiled everybody to demise. Everybody’s had on line casino fever now for…for the reason that pandemic began. It’s all coming to an finish. This sport is over. What comes subsequent is anyone’s guess, however my guess is there’s a very good likelihood we’re going right into a bear market the place it’s a must to be far more selective than you ever had been. It’s a must to take a look at the macro circumstances. And the macro circumstances have modified.

If we’re in what I imagine to be a stagflation interval, then it’s a must to decide sure shares. You’ll be able to’t purchase what you had been shopping for two years in the past. And that’s what lots of this technology, they don’t get it as a result of they’ve by no means seen it. To them, it’s all inventory market crashes in 2008, inventory market crashes in 1999, it recovers two years later, after which the occasion’s on once more. Effectively, I feel that this time is completely different. That is my perception. I could also be flawed, however I feel we’re in for a bear market and a interval of stagflation.

Meb: Ian, any extra perception? You understand, it’s humorous as a result of I didn’t publish this, however I used to be taking a look at it the opposite day, concerning the size of time of what folks assume the long term is, what they are saying it’s, after which how they behave. They behave on form of like that zero-to-three-year time horizon. They might say they’ve a longer-term time horizon, however they virtually by no means do. However we regularly ask like, “How lengthy do you suppose really, like, shares may go with out hitting a brand new excessive in lots of many years?” I imply, within the U.S., if you happen to take it again far sufficient into the 1800s, it’s like 50 years or one thing on an actual foundation. However if you happen to go down an inventory, and listeners go do this, go take the 45-odd inventory markets world wide, do it on a complete return foundation, so together with dividends, however look what number of have gone nowhere for 10 years to twenty years. Like, it isn’t an insignificant quantity. I’ll need to go simply do the precise writing, however there’s some which are the identical place they had been 10 years, 20 years in the past, simply not the U.S., market cap weighted. We’ll see the way it performs out, however wrestle is the norm, I feel is a neater strategy to say it. Ian, any ideas?

Ian: I can’t add to Frank’s view. I agree along with his view. In fact, I can’t bear in mind the 1929 crash like Frank can, however I feel we’re in for a interval of down inventory costs in a bear market, and it’ll last more than anybody expects. And so it’s going to be a unique world than we’ve all had for the final 20 years, for positive.

Meb: All proper. Who desires to make a guess? We solely have 200 votes to this point, however we’ll submit the total. It often will begin to condense. It’s fairly shut. What do you guys guess the share of Meb’s followers on Twitter that personal gold or miners? So based mostly within the U.S., lots of skilled traders, but additionally I tilt a bit of in the direction of…

Frank: What number of followers?

Meb: A few hundred and one thing thousand, 100,000, however there’s solely been 200 votes this far.

Frank: Okay. My guess is 10% to fifteen%.

Meb: Okay.

Ian: I’d say the identical, 15%.

Meb: You guys shall be astonished as I’m that 40% mentioned they personal gold or miners. I wager that comes down, and I wager possibly it’s simply all of the Canadians and Australians who will not be on trip proper now or one thing, and so they’re all voting as a result of this appears manner excessive relative to what I’d count on. As a result of the bizarre half is, I did this identical ballot and I requested about actual belongings, and virtually nobody mentioned they owned actual belongings. So there’s some form of dislocation right here. I don’t know what it’s, however possibly everybody’s simply saying as a result of they personal S&P Index, they find yourself proudly owning just a few gold miners in there. I don’t know, however one thing is amiss. It appears excessive.

All proper. Effectively, we’re going to begin to wind down, guys. We’ve solely bought in all probability 10 extra minutes to talk with you. As we take into consideration sort of the longer term and look out to the horizon, something we haven’t chatted about within the investing world, within the mining world, has bought you significantly curious, nervous, excited, depressed, any broad emotion? Something that you just’re excited about, something that’s preserving you up at evening, or placing you to sleep, that we haven’t talked about? Something on the mind?

Frank: I’m wondering what this entire crypto collapse goes to imply for the remainder of the market, the economic system basically. I don’t suppose the washout is completed but. It’s come off by two-thirds already, however I don’t suppose it’s over but. It may do what the dot-com shares did again in 1999. You understand, by the point it was completed, they had been down 90%. Quite a bit went to zero. And so we haven’t had the whole washout of the crypto mania but. And if it does come, I’m wondering…I’m simply curious if there shall be a knock-on impact, and if it actually will have an effect on the remainder of the housing market, inventory market, the economic system. That’s the query mark for me. I don’t know the reply, however that will fear me a bit.

Meb: Presumably, and that is exhausting to quantify, however considering when it comes to form of the wind and the sails of treasured metals, about how a lot consideration, significantly with the youthful crowd, has been diverted for these looking for form of a protected haven mindset of two crypto sort of automobiles that in any other case might have gone to treasured metals. And so in some ways, I’m wondering if that might be a possible catalyst for a bull publicity to the miners, presuming they don’t additionally go down 80%, 90%, however seemingly that will be a constructive. Man, the quantity of fraud and scams and simply horrible conduct we’ve witnessed in the previous few years within the crypto house, actually, if not one black eye, it’s two.

Frank: I’m simply questioning whether or not they’re going to have any cash left to put money into gold or anything. That’s what worries me as a result of I feel that lots of that crypto crowd, the hardcore guys are taking place with the ship. They don’t care, they imagine. And so it’s not like they went, “Oh, whoops. We made a mistake, and time to change horses.” Clearly, the good merchants, and I had this debate a few yr in the past with somebody on this, an important debate on gold versus Bitcoin form of factor. And I used to be being instructed by the particular person I used to be debating that each one the hedge funds and the good cash was going into Bitcoin, blah, blah. And I mentioned, “Guys, these are momentum gamers. The minute the momentum stops, they’re out and so they’re going to be driving another asset class. They’re not maxis. They don’t care as a lot as you. You guys…”

However there’s a very giant proportion of that crypto inhabitants that’s holding on and going, “We don’t care. It’s taking place, finally, it’s going to go up and crypto’s going to save lots of the world.” And people are the parents which are going to get fully, for my part, going to get fully worn out, and so they gained’t have any cash left to place it to one thing else. So I don’t know. This entire crypto factor is a very bizarre one and it’s…I don’t suppose we’ve ever seen something prefer it in our lifetimes, and we’ll by no means see it once more.

Meb: Ian, something that’s in your mind currently?

Ian: Effectively, the one factor, and I don’t know very a lot about it, however I’m watching with fascination because the world tries to get off of carbon fuels and get extra electrified and digitized. So subsequently that needs to be extremely good for copper, and you may learn an article a day on how we’re going to expire of copper any minute, and but over the previous three weeks, the value of copper has collapsed. I simply don’t understand how the lithium, and the cobalt, and the copper are all going to do as we attempt to electrify the world. I don’t know how that’s going to get resolved, however there’s a big disconnect available in the market proper now.

Meb: And the ag house too. I imply, you’ve seen, traditionally, among the ranges of the costs we’re at now, despite the fact that they’ve come down, create lots of geopolitical unrest and also you’re seeing that. So you may have like a twin, each ag and power, stressor. Clearly, lots of it’s taking place in Europe. Final go-round, it was actually lots of meals insecurity in Africa, Center East, Arab Spring. Hopefully, it resolves itself, however typically that results in toppling of governments and regimes and every thing else. However we had a current podcast visitor, Peter Zion, on, who had a a lot bleaker view for the autumn and sort of how that ag publicity might play out. So hopefully constructive, nevertheless it’s actually one thing that sources are much more entrance of thoughts than they had been when oil was buying and selling at unfavorable future values just a few years in the past.

Frank: So as to add to the ag downside, you’ve bought all this local weather change stuff that’s taking place, which is admittedly affecting agriculture world wide. I wrote an article on this final yr on the consequences of local weather change on agriculture and agricultural output in behemoth nations like Brazil, you understand? Whether or not they’re excessive heats, droughts, floods…I imply, they’re taking place locations the place these items shouldn’t be taking place, and so they’re actually killing…It’s weighing closely on agricultural output. Now you’ve added this entire Ukraine conflict scenario, which as we all know, the wheat provides from Ukraine and Russia rely for about 40% of world provides. And the place’s that…who’s going to undergo most? International locations in Africa, the Center East, these which were reliant on these exports.

And I agree with you. I feel that’s one thing to be very nervous about as a result of, as I wrote not too long ago, we are able to all go right into a extreme recession. I can take away your iPhone and your automobile, you’ll stay. However I take away your meals, you’re going to behave in a different way. You’re going to do issues that you just wouldn’t in any other case do. And that’s the place societies crumble. That’s the place you get the Arab Springs and different conditions. So I’d be very nervous about that too. And I simply hope it doesn’t occur as a result of it might be very tragic.

Meb: Gents, final query for you each. You’ll be able to have a second to consider it, nevertheless it’s a query we ask all of our company, and it may be good or dangerous, however the query is framed, what’s your most memorable funding?

Frank: I’ve one, and this can be a very precious lesson in timing markets or the failure to time markets. And when the dot-com bubble was taking place, I used to be wanting round and I used to be telling all people who listened to me that this was madness, that there was no foundation for the valuations of those tech shares, and that it will definitely would implode. And so I shorted, and I can’t bear in mind why I shorted this specific tech inventory that was buying and selling on the NASDAQ, however I learn what it was, and it was nothing. It was based mostly on some future potential, possibly this can occur or that’ll occur, Venus will align with Mars, and all these items that to me had been mumbo-jumbo.

And also you had these giant funding banks, Wall Avenue funding banks, writing stories with these loopy projections, going, “This…” So I began shorting it and I saved going up, and I saved getting margin calls. And I used to be going, “Okay, I can’t go for it.” So I saved placing up margin, placing up margin. The inventory went from $12 to $30 to $40 to $80. And I used to be going, “This may’t go on eternally.” I ultimately bailed. And I feel I couldn’t…In any case, I misplaced a lot cash…I can’t bear in mind. I imply, it was $110, $120 a share. It went to $200, after which it went to zero. And I nonetheless misplaced some huge cash.

Meb: Shorting is so exhausting. Markets can go bananas. I imply, the current examples final yr was with, and nonetheless ongoing, however a few of these meme shares that took down very giant quick sellers. The timing on shorting is tough, nevertheless it’s a very good lesson, and also you don’t overlook that one. I’ve had my expertise there. Ian, what do you bought?

Ian: My most memorable was at one level within the early ’90s, Robert Friedman was making an attempt to rent me and I wasn’t positive, and I used to be hesitant. And so he simply began throwing alternatives my manner. I lastly agreed to go and be part of him. And as a part of that, he mentioned, “Effectively, I’ll make you a director of diamond fields.” And I’d by no means heard of diamond fields. And so I bought inventory in diamond fields at 15 cents, I bought choices at 18 cents. And in order that was nice. So the inventory made it to $5, and I believed I used to be a genius. So in fact I bought it. I made sufficient cash to construct a waterfront home in Vancouver, however then the inventory went to $150. In order that’s one among my most memorable investments.

Meb: We did a submit on this. I’m making an attempt to suppose when it was and the title of it, nevertheless it’s basically speaking about tips on how to plan for funding outcomes. And the one which most individuals take into consideration is, okay, what occurs if this inventory begins to go down, or at what level do I promote if issues go poorly? However we regularly inform folks, we are saying, “It’s a must to…” and that is clearly a a lot better downside to have. “It’s a must to mentally put together for a way are you going to deal with an funding that’s the reverse, that does very well?” So a 5-bagger, a 10-bagger, a 100-bagger. And most of the people by no means had these as a result of what occurs is that they promote after the 1-bagger. They, “Oh my God, I purchased this, it doubled. I purchased Aris, it doubled. I’m going to go purchase a brand new automobile. I’m going to go on trip, yadda, yadda.”

However the energy legal guidelines of investing the place you make some actually large wealth is each inventory that turns into a 10-bagger or a 100-bagger was as soon as a 1-bagger. And so there’s lots of methods to consider that. I feel folks don’t wish to suppose within the binary phrases of…they wish to suppose when it comes to in or out, however possibly simply promoting a bit of might be one answer to keep away from the emotional ache of remorse minimization there on the precise massive winner. That’s nice, guys.

Effectively, look, fellas. I’d like to preserve you all day, however all of us want to maneuver on. We’d like to have you ever again and watch what you guys are doing sooner or later. If folks wish to sort of sustain together with your firm, what your ideas, your writings, your farming merchandise you’re placing out, the place do they go? What are the perfect locations to maintain up with you guys?

Frank: I’ve bought a weblog,, I write for the Toronto star each couple of weeks, I write a column on often macro points and different issues, and you may comply with me on Twitter. That’s often the place you’ll get my messaging.

Ian: For me. I’m not on social media, I don’t write a column for anyone. You’ll have to simply regulate bulletins for the varied corporations I’m concerned in to see what I’m as much as.

Meb: Go hike across the Canadian wilderness, discover you in a cabin. Excellent.

Ian: Precisely proper.

Meb: Gents, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to hitch us right this moment.

Frank: Meb, that was nice. Nice interview. Thanks.

Ian: Yeah, Meb, thanks very a lot.

Meb: Podcast listeners, we’ll submit present notes to right this moment’s dialog at In case you love the present, if you happen to hate it, shoot us suggestions at We like to learn the evaluations. Please assessment us on iTunes and subscribe to the present anyplace good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening, pals, and good investing.

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